Τέταρτη διάσκεψη της Μόσχας στις 9 Οκτώβριο του 1944. Ο Ουίνστον Τσώρτσιλ, ο αμερικανός πρέσβης Αβερελ Χάριμαν, ο Ιωσήφ Στάλιν και ο Βιάτσεσλαβ Μιχαήλοβιτς (Μολότοφ).
Στις 10 π.μ της 9ης Οκτωβρίου 1944, άρχισε στο Κρεμλίνο η τεταρτη συνάντηση της Μόσχας, όπου ο Βρετανός πρωθυπουργός Ουίνστον Τσώρτσιλ και ο Σοβιετικός ηγέτης Ιωσήφ Στάλιν συζήτησαν τα «προβλήματα» της Πολωνίας, της Ιταλίας, της Γιουγκοσλαβίας, της Βουλγαρίας, της Ρουμανίας, της Τουρκίας και της Ελλάδας, τον διαμελισμό και το μέλλον της Γερμανίας, και τα αμερικανικά σχέδια στον πόλεμο εναντίον της Ιαπωνίας Στη συζήτηση συμμετείχαν ο Μολοτωφ και ο Ιντεν.
Το πλήρες αγγλικό κείμενο των στενογραφημένων πρακτικών βρίσκεται εδώ...
http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/123186
Οι συμφωνίες της Μόσχας για «αρμονική συνεργασία»
Ο Στάλιν αποδέχθηκε τα συμφέροντα της Βρετανίας στην Ελλάδα και συμφώνησε με τον Ουίνστον σε αρμονική συνεργασία.
Αυτή την αποστολή είχε και ο σοβιετικός απεσταλμένος στην Αθήνα και αυτές τις συμβουλές έδινε στα «Δεκεμβριανά».
Τα ίδια τους έλεγε με τον ασύρματο και ο Δημητρώφ. Όσα έκαναν οι "κόκκινοι" στην Ελλάδα δεν είχαν τη σοβιετική κάλυψη. Ήταν «εκτός γραμμής» .
Ο Τσώρτσιλ έθεσε το ζήτημα των συμφερόντων των δύο κυβερνήσεων στις διάφορες βαλκανικές χώρες και την ανάγκη να συνεργαστούν οι δυο δυνάμεις αρμονικά σε κάθε μια από αυτές.
Μετά από κάποια συζήτηση συμφωνήθηκε ότι, όσον αφορά την Ουγγαρία και τη Γιουγκοσλαβία, κάθε μία από τις δύο κυβερνήσεις είχαν το ίδιο ενδιαφέρον,(συμφέροντα), ότι η Ρωσία είχε μεγάλο ενδιαφέρον στη Ρουμανία και ότι η Βρετανία ήταν στην ίδια θέση όσον αφορά την Ελλάδα.
Ο Τσώρτσιλ αντέτεινε ότι, το βρετανικό ενδιαφέρον για τη Βουλγαρία ήταν μεγαλύτερο από ό, τι ήταν στη Ρουμανία. Αυτό οδήγησε σε κάποια συζήτηση για τα εγκλήματα που διαπράχθηκαν από τη Βουλγαρία.
Ο ΣΤΑΛΙΝ υπενθύμισε τη Συνθήκη του Μπρεστ-Λιτόφσκ, όπου οι Βούλγαροι ήσαν στη γερμανική πλευρά και ότι τρεις βουλγαρικές μεραρχίες είχαν πολεμήσει εναντίον των Ρώσων στον πόλεμο.
«Looking at the Balkans he thought they should do something to prevent the risk of civil war between the political ideologies in those countries. They could not allow a lot of little wars after the Great World War. They should be stopped by the authority of the three Great Powers. MARSHAL STALIN agreed».
Ο Τσώρσιλ , «κοιτάζοντας τα Βαλκάνια εξέφρασε τη σκέψη ότι θα πρέπει να κάνουν κάτι για να αποτρέψουν τον κίνδυνο εμφυλίου πολέμου μεταξύ των πολιτικών ιδεολογιών σε αυτές τις χώρες.
Δεν θα έπρεπε να επιτρέψουν μικρούς πολέμους μετά το Μεγάλο Παγκόσμιο Πόλεμο. Θα έπρεπε να τους σταματήσουν με την δύναμη των τριών Μεγάλων Δυνάμεων. Ο Στρατάρχης ΣΤΑΛΙΝ συμφώνησε ».
Αυτό έγινε στα Δεκεμβριανά και αυτή ήταν η Συμφωνία της; Βάρκιζας.
Στη συνέχεια , « ο πρωθυπουργός είπε ότι ήθελε να μιλήσει για τους βασιλείς. Σε καμία περίπτωση η Βρετανία δεν θα προσπαθούσε να επιβάλει τους βασιλείς στην Ιταλία, την Ελλάδα ή την Γιουγκοσλαβία.
Οι άνθρωποι θα έπρεπε να αφεθούν να αποφασίσουν με ελεύθερα δημοψηφίσματα εν ευθέτω χρόνο με ηρεμία».
Αυτό ακριβώς έγινε με το δημοψήφισμα του 46.
Για την Ιταλία ο Τσώρτσιλ είπε , οτι «πάνω απ 'όλα δεν ήθελε εμφύλιο πόλεμο μετά τα την απόσυρσή των αγγλοαμερικανικών δυνάμεων και ζήτησε από τη Σοβιετική Ένωση να πάει με το μαλακό τους κομμουνιστές στην Ιταλία και να μην τους ερεθίζει. Καθαρή δημοκρατία θα εγκατασταθεί, ό, τι ήθελε ο λαός, αλλά δεν ήθελε ταραχές στο Τορίνο ή το Μιλάνο και συγκρούσεις μεταξύ των στρατευμάτων και των ανθρώπων. Οι Ιταλοί , είχαν πολλές ψήφους στην Νέας Υόρκη».
Ο Τσώρτσιλ δεν ζήτησε το ίδιο για την Ελλάδα.
Ο ΣΤΑΛΙΝ εξέφρασε τον φόβο του ότι οι κομμουνιστές στην Ιταλία θα τον έστελναν στο διάβολο διότι ο «Ερκολι» Ercoli (Palmiro Michele Nicola Togliatti, ψευδώνυμο Ercole Ercoli) είχε δικές του απόψεις .
Ο Στάλιν δεν είχε επιρροή στην Ελλαδα, όπου δεν μοίραζε ούτε χρυσές λίρες, ούτε όπλα και δεν διέθετε τους συνδέσμους της SOE που είχε σκορπίσει το δίκτυο του πατρός Δημητρίου στην Ελλάδα. Ο Στάλιν ότι υποσχέθηκε το έκανε.
Ο Κόκκινος Στρατός δεν «απελευθέρωσε» την Ελλάδα.
Το αγγλικό κείμενο των στενογραφημένων πρακτικών του διαλόγου Στάλιν Τσώρτσιλ:
«THE PRIME MINISTER pointed out that there were two countries in which the British had particular interest one was Greece. Roumania was very much a Russian affair and the treaty the Soviet Government had proposed was reasonable and showed much statecraft in the interests of general peace in the future. But in Greece was different. Britain must be the leading Mediterranean Power and he hoped Marshal Stalin would let him have the first say about Greece in the same way as Marshal Stalin about Roumania. Of course, the British Government would keep in touch with the Soviet Government. MARSHAL STALIN understood that Britain had suffered very much owing to her communications in the Mediterranean having been cut by the Germans. It was a serious matter for Britain when the Mediterranean route was not in her hands. In that respect Greece was very important. He agreed with the Prime Minister that Britain should have the first say in Greece.
Το πλήρες αγγλικό κείμενο των στενογραφημένων πρακτικών βρίσκεται εδώ...
http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/123186
Οι συμφωνίες της Μόσχας για «αρμονική συνεργασία»
Ο Στάλιν αποδέχθηκε τα συμφέροντα της Βρετανίας στην Ελλάδα και συμφώνησε με τον Ουίνστον σε αρμονική συνεργασία.
Αυτή την αποστολή είχε και ο σοβιετικός απεσταλμένος στην Αθήνα και αυτές τις συμβουλές έδινε στα «Δεκεμβριανά».
Τα ίδια τους έλεγε με τον ασύρματο και ο Δημητρώφ. Όσα έκαναν οι "κόκκινοι" στην Ελλάδα δεν είχαν τη σοβιετική κάλυψη. Ήταν «εκτός γραμμής» .
Ο Τσώρτσιλ έθεσε το ζήτημα των συμφερόντων των δύο κυβερνήσεων στις διάφορες βαλκανικές χώρες και την ανάγκη να συνεργαστούν οι δυο δυνάμεις αρμονικά σε κάθε μια από αυτές.
Μετά από κάποια συζήτηση συμφωνήθηκε ότι, όσον αφορά την Ουγγαρία και τη Γιουγκοσλαβία, κάθε μία από τις δύο κυβερνήσεις είχαν το ίδιο ενδιαφέρον,(συμφέροντα), ότι η Ρωσία είχε μεγάλο ενδιαφέρον στη Ρουμανία και ότι η Βρετανία ήταν στην ίδια θέση όσον αφορά την Ελλάδα.
Ο Τσώρτσιλ αντέτεινε ότι, το βρετανικό ενδιαφέρον για τη Βουλγαρία ήταν μεγαλύτερο από ό, τι ήταν στη Ρουμανία. Αυτό οδήγησε σε κάποια συζήτηση για τα εγκλήματα που διαπράχθηκαν από τη Βουλγαρία.
Ο ΣΤΑΛΙΝ υπενθύμισε τη Συνθήκη του Μπρεστ-Λιτόφσκ, όπου οι Βούλγαροι ήσαν στη γερμανική πλευρά και ότι τρεις βουλγαρικές μεραρχίες είχαν πολεμήσει εναντίον των Ρώσων στον πόλεμο.
«Looking at the Balkans he thought they should do something to prevent the risk of civil war between the political ideologies in those countries. They could not allow a lot of little wars after the Great World War. They should be stopped by the authority of the three Great Powers. MARSHAL STALIN agreed».
Ο Τσώρσιλ , «κοιτάζοντας τα Βαλκάνια εξέφρασε τη σκέψη ότι θα πρέπει να κάνουν κάτι για να αποτρέψουν τον κίνδυνο εμφυλίου πολέμου μεταξύ των πολιτικών ιδεολογιών σε αυτές τις χώρες.
Δεν θα έπρεπε να επιτρέψουν μικρούς πολέμους μετά το Μεγάλο Παγκόσμιο Πόλεμο. Θα έπρεπε να τους σταματήσουν με την δύναμη των τριών Μεγάλων Δυνάμεων. Ο Στρατάρχης ΣΤΑΛΙΝ συμφώνησε ».
Αυτό έγινε στα Δεκεμβριανά και αυτή ήταν η Συμφωνία της; Βάρκιζας.
Στη συνέχεια , « ο πρωθυπουργός είπε ότι ήθελε να μιλήσει για τους βασιλείς. Σε καμία περίπτωση η Βρετανία δεν θα προσπαθούσε να επιβάλει τους βασιλείς στην Ιταλία, την Ελλάδα ή την Γιουγκοσλαβία.
Οι άνθρωποι θα έπρεπε να αφεθούν να αποφασίσουν με ελεύθερα δημοψηφίσματα εν ευθέτω χρόνο με ηρεμία».
Αυτό ακριβώς έγινε με το δημοψήφισμα του 46.
Για την Ιταλία ο Τσώρτσιλ είπε , οτι «πάνω απ 'όλα δεν ήθελε εμφύλιο πόλεμο μετά τα την απόσυρσή των αγγλοαμερικανικών δυνάμεων και ζήτησε από τη Σοβιετική Ένωση να πάει με το μαλακό τους κομμουνιστές στην Ιταλία και να μην τους ερεθίζει. Καθαρή δημοκρατία θα εγκατασταθεί, ό, τι ήθελε ο λαός, αλλά δεν ήθελε ταραχές στο Τορίνο ή το Μιλάνο και συγκρούσεις μεταξύ των στρατευμάτων και των ανθρώπων. Οι Ιταλοί , είχαν πολλές ψήφους στην Νέας Υόρκη».
Ο Τσώρτσιλ δεν ζήτησε το ίδιο για την Ελλάδα.
Ο ΣΤΑΛΙΝ εξέφρασε τον φόβο του ότι οι κομμουνιστές στην Ιταλία θα τον έστελναν στο διάβολο διότι ο «Ερκολι» Ercoli (Palmiro Michele Nicola Togliatti, ψευδώνυμο Ercole Ercoli) είχε δικές του απόψεις .
Ο Στάλιν δεν είχε επιρροή στην Ελλαδα, όπου δεν μοίραζε ούτε χρυσές λίρες, ούτε όπλα και δεν διέθετε τους συνδέσμους της SOE που είχε σκορπίσει το δίκτυο του πατρός Δημητρίου στην Ελλάδα. Ο Στάλιν ότι υποσχέθηκε το έκανε.
Ο Κόκκινος Στρατός δεν «απελευθέρωσε» την Ελλάδα.
Το αγγλικό κείμενο των στενογραφημένων πρακτικών του διαλόγου Στάλιν Τσώρτσιλ:
«THE PRIME MINISTER pointed out that there were two countries in which the British had particular interest one was Greece. Roumania was very much a Russian affair and the treaty the Soviet Government had proposed was reasonable and showed much statecraft in the interests of general peace in the future. But in Greece was different. Britain must be the leading Mediterranean Power and he hoped Marshal Stalin would let him have the first say about Greece in the same way as Marshal Stalin about Roumania. Of course, the British Government would keep in touch with the Soviet Government. MARSHAL STALIN understood that Britain had suffered very much owing to her communications in the Mediterranean having been cut by the Germans. It was a serious matter for Britain when the Mediterranean route was not in her hands. In that respect Greece was very important. He agreed with the Prime Minister that Britain should have the first say in Greece.
Το ιδιόχειρο σημείωμα του Τσώρτσιλ με τα ποσοστά
THE PRIME MINISTER said it was better to express these things in diplomatic terms and not to use the phrase "dividing into spheres," because the Americans might be shocked. But as long as he and Marshal understood each other he could explain matters to the President. …….
THE PRIME MINISTER raised the question of the interests of the two governments in the various Balkan countries and the need to work in harmony in each of them. After some discussion it was agreed that as regards Hungary and Yugoslavia each of the two Governments was equally interested, that Russia had a major interest in Roumania and that Britain was in the same position with regard to Greece. The Prime Minister suggested that where Bulgaria was concerned the British interest was greater than it was in Roumania. This led to some discussion about the crimes committed by Bulgaria. MARSHAL STALIN recalled the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, where the Bulgarians had been on the German side and three divisions had fought against the Russians in the last war.
THE PRIME MINISTER declared that Bulgaria owed more to Russia than to any other country. He said that in Roumania Britain had been a spectator. In Bulgaria she had to be a little more than a spectator. M. MOLOTOV asked whether the Turkish question related to this matter.
THE PRIME MINISTER replied that he had not touched upon Turkey. He was only saying what was in his mind. He was glad to see how near it was to the Russian mind. M. MOLOTOV remarked that the Convention of Montreux still remained.
THE PRIME MINISTER said that was a Turkish question and not a Bulgarian. MARSHAL STALIN replied that Turkey was also a Balkan country. According to the Convention of Montreux Japan had as much right as Russia. Everything had been adjusted to the League of Nations and the League of Nations no longer existed. If Turkey were threatened she could close the Straits and Turkey herself had to decide when she was faced with a real threat. All the paragraphs in the Montreux Convention were controlled by Turkey. This was an anachronism.
Marshal Stalin had put this question in Tehran and the Prime Minister had expressed his sympathy. Now that they were discussing the Balkan question and Turkey was a Balkan country, did the Prime Minister think it appropriate to discuss it? THE PRIME MINISTER agreed. MARSHAL STALIN pointed out that if Britain were interested in the Mediterranean then Russia was equally interested in the Black Sea. THE PRIME MINISTER thought that Turkey had missed her chance after the Tehran conference. The reason she was frightened was because she had no modem weapons, she thought she had a good army, whereas nowadays an army was not everything. Turkey was not clever. MARSHAL STALIN remarked that Turkey had 26 divisions in Thrace and asked against whom they were directed.
THE PRIME MINISTER replied they were directed against Bulgaria, because Bulgaria was armed with French weapons taken by the Germans. The Prime Minister went on to say that, taking a long view of the future of the world it was no part of British policy to grudge Soviet Russia access to warm-water ports and to the great oceans and seas of the world. On the contrary, it was part of their friendship to help the Soviet Union. They no longer followed the policy of Disraeli or Lord Curzon. They were not going to stop Russia. They wished to help. What did Marshal Stalin think about the kind of changes required in the Montreux Convention? It was quite impossible for Russia to remain subject to Turkey, who could close the Straits and hamper Russian imports and exports and even her defences. What would Britain do if Spain or Egypt were given this right to close the Suez Canal, or what would the United States Government say if some South American Republic had the right to close the Panama Canal? Russia was in a worse situation. Marshal Stalin did not want to restrict Turkey's sovereignty. But at the same time he did not want Turkey to abuse her sovereignty and to grip Russian trade by the throat.
THE PRIME MINISTER replied that in principle he shared that point of view. He suggested that the Russians should let us know in due course what was required. Otherwise Turkey might be frightened that Istanbul was to be taken. When the three heads met later on there would not be the same difficulty. He was in favour of Russia's having free access to the Mediterranean for her merchant ships and ships of war. Britain hoped to work in a friendly way with the Soviet Union, but wanted to bring Turkey along by gentle steps, not to frighten her.
THE PRIME MINISTER said that, if they were sitting at the armistice table and Marshal Stalin asked him for free passage through the Straits for merchant ships and warships, he personally would say that Britain had no objection. Britain had no ties with Turkey except the Montreux Convention, which was inadmissible to-day and obsolete. Looking at the Balkans he thought they should do something to prevent the risk of civil war between the political ideologies in those countries. They could not allow a lot of little wars after the Great World War. They should be stopped by the authority of the three Great Powers. MARSHAL STALIN agreed.
THE PRIME MINISTER said he wanted to talk about Kings. In no case would Britain try to force a King on Italy, Greece or Yugoslavia. At the same time the people ought to be left to decide matters by a free plebiscite in time of tranquillity. They could then say whether they wanted a republic or a monarchy. The people should have a fair chance of freedom of expression.
Northern Italy was in the power of the Anglo-American armies. Britain did not care for the Italian King, but above all they did not want civil war after the troops had been withdrawn or before their withdrawal. Britain would like the Soviet Union to soft-pedal the Communists in Italy and not to stir them up. Pure democracy would settle what the people wanted, but he did not want to have disturbances in Turin or Milan and clashes between the troops and the people. The Italians were in a miserable condition. He did not think much of them as a people, but they had a good many votes in New York State. This was off the record
Το Αιγαίο οι ανοιχτές θάλασσες και τα Στενά.
THE PRIME MINISTER raised the question of the interests of the two governments in the various Balkan countries and the need to work in harmony in each of them. After some discussion it was agreed that as regards Hungary and Yugoslavia each of the two Governments was equally interested, that Russia had a major interest in Roumania and that Britain was in the same position with regard to Greece. The Prime Minister suggested that where Bulgaria was concerned the British interest was greater than it was in Roumania. This led to some discussion about the crimes committed by Bulgaria. MARSHAL STALIN recalled the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, where the Bulgarians had been on the German side and three divisions had fought against the Russians in the last war.
THE PRIME MINISTER declared that Bulgaria owed more to Russia than to any other country. He said that in Roumania Britain had been a spectator. In Bulgaria she had to be a little more than a spectator. M. MOLOTOV asked whether the Turkish question related to this matter.
THE PRIME MINISTER replied that he had not touched upon Turkey. He was only saying what was in his mind. He was glad to see how near it was to the Russian mind. M. MOLOTOV remarked that the Convention of Montreux still remained.
THE PRIME MINISTER said that was a Turkish question and not a Bulgarian. MARSHAL STALIN replied that Turkey was also a Balkan country. According to the Convention of Montreux Japan had as much right as Russia. Everything had been adjusted to the League of Nations and the League of Nations no longer existed. If Turkey were threatened she could close the Straits and Turkey herself had to decide when she was faced with a real threat. All the paragraphs in the Montreux Convention were controlled by Turkey. This was an anachronism.
Marshal Stalin had put this question in Tehran and the Prime Minister had expressed his sympathy. Now that they were discussing the Balkan question and Turkey was a Balkan country, did the Prime Minister think it appropriate to discuss it? THE PRIME MINISTER agreed. MARSHAL STALIN pointed out that if Britain were interested in the Mediterranean then Russia was equally interested in the Black Sea. THE PRIME MINISTER thought that Turkey had missed her chance after the Tehran conference. The reason she was frightened was because she had no modem weapons, she thought she had a good army, whereas nowadays an army was not everything. Turkey was not clever. MARSHAL STALIN remarked that Turkey had 26 divisions in Thrace and asked against whom they were directed.
THE PRIME MINISTER replied they were directed against Bulgaria, because Bulgaria was armed with French weapons taken by the Germans. The Prime Minister went on to say that, taking a long view of the future of the world it was no part of British policy to grudge Soviet Russia access to warm-water ports and to the great oceans and seas of the world. On the contrary, it was part of their friendship to help the Soviet Union. They no longer followed the policy of Disraeli or Lord Curzon. They were not going to stop Russia. They wished to help. What did Marshal Stalin think about the kind of changes required in the Montreux Convention? It was quite impossible for Russia to remain subject to Turkey, who could close the Straits and hamper Russian imports and exports and even her defences. What would Britain do if Spain or Egypt were given this right to close the Suez Canal, or what would the United States Government say if some South American Republic had the right to close the Panama Canal? Russia was in a worse situation. Marshal Stalin did not want to restrict Turkey's sovereignty. But at the same time he did not want Turkey to abuse her sovereignty and to grip Russian trade by the throat.
THE PRIME MINISTER replied that in principle he shared that point of view. He suggested that the Russians should let us know in due course what was required. Otherwise Turkey might be frightened that Istanbul was to be taken. When the three heads met later on there would not be the same difficulty. He was in favour of Russia's having free access to the Mediterranean for her merchant ships and ships of war. Britain hoped to work in a friendly way with the Soviet Union, but wanted to bring Turkey along by gentle steps, not to frighten her.
THE PRIME MINISTER said that, if they were sitting at the armistice table and Marshal Stalin asked him for free passage through the Straits for merchant ships and warships, he personally would say that Britain had no objection. Britain had no ties with Turkey except the Montreux Convention, which was inadmissible to-day and obsolete. Looking at the Balkans he thought they should do something to prevent the risk of civil war between the political ideologies in those countries. They could not allow a lot of little wars after the Great World War. They should be stopped by the authority of the three Great Powers. MARSHAL STALIN agreed.
THE PRIME MINISTER said he wanted to talk about Kings. In no case would Britain try to force a King on Italy, Greece or Yugoslavia. At the same time the people ought to be left to decide matters by a free plebiscite in time of tranquillity. They could then say whether they wanted a republic or a monarchy. The people should have a fair chance of freedom of expression.
Northern Italy was in the power of the Anglo-American armies. Britain did not care for the Italian King, but above all they did not want civil war after the troops had been withdrawn or before their withdrawal. Britain would like the Soviet Union to soft-pedal the Communists in Italy and not to stir them up. Pure democracy would settle what the people wanted, but he did not want to have disturbances in Turin or Milan and clashes between the troops and the people. The Italians were in a miserable condition. He did not think much of them as a people, but they had a good many votes in New York State. This was off the record
Το Αιγαίο οι ανοιχτές θάλασσες και τα Στενά.
Ο Τσώρτσιλ είπε ότι λαμβάνοντας υπόψη το μακροπρόθεσμο μέλλον του κόσμου η βρετανική πολιτική δεν απέβλεπε στο να ανακόψει την πρόσβαση της Σοβιετικής Ρωσίας στα ζεστά λιμάνια τις μεγάλες θάλασσες και τους ωκεανούς του κόσμου. Αντιθέτως, ήταν μέρος της φιλίας τους για να βοηθήσουν τη Σοβιετική Ένωση.
Δεν ίσχυε πλέον η πολιτική του Ντισραέλι.
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